tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post2908946903832455646..comments2024-03-23T14:04:57.635-05:00Comments on Father Hollywood: The Grand, the Glorious, and the UglyRev. Larry Beanehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-62941799112394018322009-07-02T20:03:46.820-05:002009-07-02T20:03:46.820-05:00Two quick notes:
1. In regard to the Sacred Hear...Two quick notes:<br /><br />1. In regard to the Sacred Heart image, did you know that Historic Trinity in St. Louis (Walther's parish)has a window with the Veil of St. Veronica? <br /><br />2. I too am sorry for the impression you have received of Chicago. Perhaps it's the Union Station folks more than anything. In general, our experience of Chicago people has been very friendly. Once in a while you get someone grumpy or rude, but often it's welcoming and pleasant.Rev. Richard A. Heinzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11181928056271673053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-25140995150627091112009-07-01T21:45:09.532-05:002009-07-01T21:45:09.532-05:00Some of the very excesses in devotional piety that...Some of the very excesses in devotional piety that the Roman hierarchy has permitted because of agitation by the laity are the very ones the bishops and pope should have reined in and said, no, this goes beyond what the church has historically taught and believed. Allowing the laity to be in a constant state of agitation for yet another apparition keeps them in an infantile state in which they will not grow into the fullness of the stature of Christ as Scripture admonishes because they aren't going to the source.<br /><br />As Jaroslav Pelikan observed in his book "Roman Catholicism" it is the nature of the RC church to allow various practices to flourish as long as the unity of the church is not threatened. She takes what is useful from them and then lets them fade away when no longer useful. <br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-17934440210753084172009-07-01T16:33:06.505-05:002009-07-01T16:33:06.505-05:00"There are plenty of Catholic symbols that da..."There are plenty of Catholic symbols that date to before the Reformation and the only thing that proves is how far away from authentic catholic Christianity the RC moved over the centuries."<br /><br />Which is my feeling exactly. I think a Lutheran can view the Sacred Heart as a beautiful symbol of Jesus' sacrificial love for His Church without buying into all the post-Reformation 'visions', law based promises, and pairings with Mary's Immaculate Heart. This is probably how Lutherans saw it 100 years ago.<br /><br />As with many other historic traditions, Roman misuse does not negate proper evangelical use among us.<br /><br />But I think we are speaking in the hypothetical in regards to the Sacred Heart- even an 'evangelical' use would be nearly impossible in practice given all the baggage attached.gnesio-lutheranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15305796750540631224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-45683197650924451062009-07-01T16:19:12.606-05:002009-07-01T16:19:12.606-05:00"What's funny yet painfully ironic to me ..."What's funny yet painfully ironic to me from that same former RC standpoint is to see so many things on the one hand avoided as "too Catholic" from pre VII and on the other even liturgical types will line up like baby ducks behind mama for post VII novus ordo wannabe liturgies now common among heterodox churches with a liturgical tradition."<br /><br />I agree- I couldn't care less what the Novus Ordo Roman Church is dong these days, nor do I think we should mimic them for whatever reason. For example, in many RC quarters the (previously suppressed)'Divine Mercy' devotion has trumped the Sacred Heart anyway.<br /><br />Instead, as Confessional Lutherans we should seek our inspiration in Scripture and the 'best practices' of the historic western catholic tradition. My interest in such things as the Sacred Heart and other symbolism and liturgical niceties has to do with faithfulness to OUR OWN traditions as explained in the Augustana.gnesio-lutheranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15305796750540631224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-39483894252711406052009-07-01T15:36:50.138-05:002009-07-01T15:36:50.138-05:00Gnesio-Lutheran,
The references to the Sacred Hea...Gnesio-Lutheran,<br /><br />The references to the Sacred Heart in connection with St. Gertrude are somewhat different than the alleged "revelations" to Margaret Mary Alacoque at a later date. Much of this devotion is tied in to the Jansensim that affected Catholicism, especially in France.<br /><br />As I said above, it simply can't stand alone, every private devotion ultimately leads to more. You are, of course, free to believe what you want but devotion to the Sacred Heart ultimately leads to its counterpart to the First Saturday devotion to Mary.<br /><br />I don't think too many Lutherans can swallow this:<br /><br /><i>The request for this devotion was revealed by Our Lady of the Rosary to Bl. Francisco, Bl. Jacinta and Lucia to whom she appeared at Fátima, Portugal, in 1917. On June 13,1917, Our Lady clearly said to Lucia: <br /><br />Jesus wishes to make use of you to make me known and loved. He wants to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.<br /><br />Our Lady repeated this in the July 13th apparition when, after the vision of Hell that was granted to the three little shepherds, She said: <br /><br />You have seen Hell, where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.<br /><br />She wishes that, as we endure the inconveniences, suffering and heart aches of our daily life, we offer them up accompanying them by the following praying:<br /><br />O my Jesus, I offer this for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.</i><br /><br />What a sad departure from the comfort of the Gospels. Does this even remotely sound like the humble Mother of God who rejoices to be the Theotokos, the one who points the way to Him?<br /><br />As Past Elder wisely observed, what was once optional and undefined becomes proscribed in popular piety.<br /><br />I know how romantic it all sounds. It wasn't until I was inside the gates of Rome that I began to see what it all leads to in actuality. There are plenty of Catholic symbols that date to before the Reformation and the only thing that proves is how far away from authentic catholic Christianity the RC moved over the centuries.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-67812907881487217452009-07-01T15:33:12.823-05:002009-07-01T15:33:12.823-05:00I agree on that point GL. (Not Green Lantern!) L...I agree on that point GL. (Not Green Lantern!) Look at the problems we have even with the word "catholic" let alone the things that are catholic.<br /><br />What's funny yet painfully ironic to me from that same former RC standpoint is to see so many things on the one hand avoided as "too Catholic" from pre VII and on the other even liturgical types will line up like baby ducks behind mama for post VII novus ordo wannabe liturgies now common among heterodox churches with a liturgical tradition.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-17017836355608151062009-07-01T15:16:21.918-05:002009-07-01T15:16:21.918-05:00I like fishsticks and tater tots to this day. MOF...I like fishsticks and tater tots to this day. MOF first dinner when I'm in Boston is right straight to Legal Sea Food to get scrod. Wish they were still in the Park Plaza though.<br /><br />But man I'll never forget the First Friday when I saw that the smartest girl in class was also a total babe even with her glasses!<br /><br />Can you get a flour pounded pan fried steak in NOLA, or is that an East Tennessee thing?Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-1560048654805496472009-07-01T15:14:57.424-05:002009-07-01T15:14:57.424-05:00"Sigh. As gently as I can say it, it IS a Rom..."Sigh. As gently as I can say it, it IS a Roman Catholic symbol."<br /><br />I repectfully disagree.<br /><br />As I pointed out in my earlier post, this symbol dates to before the Refomation, and was (at least occasionally) used among some Lutherans even after the Reformation. It was apparently not considered "too Roman Catholic" by the stauch LCMS Confessional Lutherans who built St. Stephen's in 1901, and probably other Lutheran churches as well.<br /><br />That being said, I would certainly agree that the RCC has added a lot of "baggage" since to Reformation, like Sr. Margaret Mary's visions and law-based promises of God's blessings wherever the image is displayed and venerated.<br /><br />It would probably be extremely difficult pastorally to find an 'evangelical' use for it at this time, when there are much bigger battles to be fought.<br /><br />But I am not willing to concede the Sacred Heart away to the RCs- it is, in a small way, part of our heritage too.gnesio-lutheranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15305796750540631224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-21073842296727746252009-07-01T15:05:07.321-05:002009-07-01T15:05:07.321-05:00Hey, if we get the Sacred Heart thing going, maybe...<i>Hey, if we get the Sacred Heart thing going, maybe the First Friday part of it will come too.</i><br /><br />Hah, yeah, but then we gotta do the First Saturday Devotion to the Immaculate Heart through Our Lady of Fatima which is "intended to make reparation for the offenses, knowingly or unkowingly, directed to Her Most Immaculate Heart."<br /><br />Nothing in the RC ever stands alone -- it just piles and piles, no matter how far away it gets from the Gospel.<br /><br />Still, bring on those fishsticks and tater tots!!<br /><br />Father Hollywood, you are right about Lent. My Lutheran grandmother served fish on Fridays right along with my Catholic grandmother.<br /><br />That's about the only thing they had in common (-:<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-54077783084563615342009-07-01T14:58:07.307-05:002009-07-01T14:58:07.307-05:00Interestingly, the school lunches at my parish are...Interestingly, the school lunches at my parish are purchased from the RC Archdiocese, hence Friday's lunches are often (maybe always) fish. Monday is inevitably red beans and rice, but that's a NOLA thing, not a Roman thing.<br /><br />Even the most Protty of Lutheran churches often sponsor Friday fish-fries - especially during Lent.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-63904626387054128482009-07-01T14:43:53.722-05:002009-07-01T14:43:53.722-05:00Hey, if we get the Sacred Heart thing going, maybe...Hey, if we get the Sacred Heart thing going, maybe the First Friday part of it will come too.<br /><br />Then Lutheran schoolboys can enjoy one of the great things their Catholic counterparts enjoy -- the one day in the month when the girls don't have to wear the damn uniforms and you can check them out way better.<br /><br />Not to mention wondering if school lunch will be haddock patties or fishsticks -- I go for the fishsticks because they are usually served with tater tots.<br /><br />A heads up though -- "catechesis" that not wearing the uniform is a sign of celebration of the love of Jesus for his church will have limited results for a teen boy for whom the girl who yesterday was a bland figure in a school uniform is to-day knocking your eyes out!Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-43278412398700942932009-07-01T14:08:55.339-05:002009-07-01T14:08:55.339-05:00Father Hollywood, thank you for your gracious feed...Father Hollywood, thank you for your gracious feedback.<br /><br /><i>Not to mention that most of the American RCC is in as full a retreat from these pre-VII devotions as the emergent church Ablaze set is from our stuff.</i><br /><br />Past Elder, I found that to be very true. For many Vatican II Catholics devotions such as the Sacred Heart/Immaculate Heart are downright embarrassing. Walk into most Catholic homes these days and if there's even one crucifix it's amazing (my Catholic in-laws' homes were devoid of Catholic art of any kind).<br /><br />Confessional Lutherans won't become more "catholic" by adopting the "Catholic" piety of the pre-Vatican II church.<br /><br />I am aware that Luther retained belief in the Immaculate Conception and my regard for Martin Luther is second to none. But for me he doesn't have the last word on it.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-52975429619137179122009-07-01T13:52:40.688-05:002009-07-01T13:52:40.688-05:00One of the more interesting aspects of being a con...One of the more interesting aspects of being a confessional Lutheran having been RC pre and post Vatican II is to see Lutherans going on about stuff like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread when to an RC it's just part of the landscape.<br /><br />All of these devotions, even when OK'd by the church, remain optional in Catholic belief and piety. That's the official stance. Which plays out a little differently irl. The whole Lourdes thing zum B may be optional, yet my high school was named for it complete with replica of the statue of Mary at Lourdes. It doesn't take dogmatisation for the non-binding thing to effectively disappear. They just become things you're either into or quietly ignore along with whatever else you don't get into.<br /><br />Not to mention that most of the American RCC is in as full a retreat from these pre-VII devotions as the emergent church Ablaze set is from our stuff.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-64444217088226788252009-07-01T13:34:07.418-05:002009-07-01T13:34:07.418-05:00Dear Christine:
I don't know enough about the...Dear Christine:<br /><br />I don't know enough about the history of the Sacred Heart to speak to any of this. I do know that St. Stephen's in Milwaukee (whose pastor is Fr. Tim May, SSP)was built as a Lutheran Church. The opposite stained glass window depicts Luther's Seal.<br /><br />I don't know that the Sacred Heart of Jesus needs to be depicted in a feminized way. The statue of our Lord on one of the side altars at Zion Lutheran in Detroit, for example, is a statue of Jesus with the Sacred Heart portion removed. He looks like the typically manful Christ.<br /><br />As far as the Immaculate Conception goes, the only thing exclusively Roman about it is its dogmatization. Luther believed in the Immaculate Conception.<br /><br />Though there is nothing in Scripture as to how it was done, somehow, the Lord Jesus's perfection was maintained in spite of his real human conception from the virgin Mary. <br /><br />There is "something about Mary" that makes her unique as a human vessel for our Lord - while Scripture is silent about the details.<br /><br />Our confessions use the term "sanctissima" ("most holy") to describe the Blessed Virgin - the same epithet used in the once-popular RC hymn "Salve Regina."<br /><br />The problem with the RC Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is the fact that it was dogmatized. The issue here isn't so much with Mary as it is a matter of the authority of the Church to define dogmatic truth apart from Scripture, including the issue of the authority of the Bishop of Rome to declare such matters based on his own ecclesial authority.<br /><br />We Lutherans are certainly free to believe in the Immaculate Conception as a theory or explanation of how our Lord was shielded from original sin, while we have no authority to dogmatize it or bind consciences to such a teaching - which is better described as a "pious opinion" rather than church doctrine.<br /><br />Interestingly, it was just such a pious opinion in the RC Church until it was dogmatized by Pius IX in 1854.<br /><br />Thanks for your always thoughtful discourse!Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-2081845228283063132009-07-01T13:07:01.676-05:002009-07-01T13:07:01.676-05:00Drat, that should have been Margaret Mary as in Ma...Drat, that should have been Margaret Mary as in Margaret Mary Alacoque.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-88059377949404620762009-07-01T13:05:04.656-05:002009-07-01T13:05:04.656-05:00Devotion to the Sacred Heart was revived and re-po...<i>Devotion to the Sacred Heart was revived and re-popularized among Roman Catholics late in the 19th century, and now unfortunately it is considered by many to be an exclusively Roman Catholic symbol.</i><br /><br />Sigh. As gently as I can say it, it IS a Roman Catholic symbol. And not meaning to be disrespectful, images of the Sacred Heart are too often sentimental and feminine. Nor am I comfortable with the "apparition" of Jesus to St. Mary Margaret in connection with the Sacred Heart devotion.<br /><br />I know, I know, with so much of our Synod being "Ablaze" with American evangelicalism I, too, want to see a mighty liturgical revival. But perhaps we should keep it authentically Lutheran?<br /><br />I guess it's the battle scars of having spent ten years in the Church of Rome.<br /><br />In the RC devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is inevitably joined to the Immaculate Heart of Mary which leads directly to the Immaculate Conception and other exclusively Roman innovations.<br /><br />I wonder if those Lutheran churches were former Catholic parishes. I have to say, in all my travels in Germany where I saw some very old Lutheran churches I've never seen that symbol displayed.<br /><br />But then, I am far more comfortable with the Theology of the Cross than any extrabiblical apparitions.<br /><br />For what it's worth.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-52473639248876282652009-07-01T11:30:54.326-05:002009-07-01T11:30:54.326-05:00Perhaps so.
Devotion to the Sacred Heart was revi...Perhaps so.<br /><br />Devotion to the Sacred Heart was revived and re-popularized among Roman Catholics late in the 19th century, and now unfortunately it is considered by many to be an exclusively Roman Catholic symbol.<br /><br />Which is unfortunate, because it is a beautiful emblem of Christ's sacrificial love for His Church.gnesio-lutheranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15305796750540631224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-63529677288739035662009-07-01T11:24:29.246-05:002009-07-01T11:24:29.246-05:00Dear G-L:
Someone just e-mailed me to tell me tha...Dear G-L:<br /><br />Someone just e-mailed me to tell me that there is a historic LCMS church in New Orleans that likewise has a stained glass of the Sacred Heart.<br /><br />I wonder if such images are more common among older churches than we would think.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-16856357503189920902009-07-01T11:17:58.028-05:002009-07-01T11:17:58.028-05:00"This is the only Lutheran church I've ev..."This is the only Lutheran church I've ever seen that has a window honoring the Sacred Heart of Jesus."<br /><br />Yes this is unusual, but it would not have seemed too strange to the good Germans who built St. Stephen's 100+ years ago. Meditations on Jesus' Passion and devotion to his Holy Wounds were quite common in the Middle ages. The imagery of the Sacred Heart was popularized by a German Augustinian(!)nun, St. Gertrude. Such devotions, to some extent, survived among some Lutherans even after the Reformation. Indeed, Gerhardt's famous 'O Sacred Head' was based on an earlier meditation on the Holy Wounds attributed to St. Bernard.<br /><br />If I recall, there is a historic LCMS church in St. Louis (Holy Cross?)which diplays as stained glass St. Veronica's Veil, an image taken from an early Passion legend.gnesio-lutheranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15305796750540631224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-73515767337973080282009-07-01T04:29:38.112-05:002009-07-01T04:29:38.112-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234917506356126494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-3335103731590847882009-07-01T00:50:10.964-05:002009-07-01T00:50:10.964-05:00God bless me sideways. Something didn't feel ...God bless me sideways. Something didn't feel right. Grandpa and Uncle worked for the Chicago & North Western, now part of Union Pacific. Did ride the CB&Q California Zephyr though, hell yes, got a picture of me in the end car reading about the Taylor-Burton divorce to prove it! Road the bleeder all the way back from Oakland CA! Was my first time in Omaha too -- didn't know I'd come back to stay. The station here is a Western Heritage Museum now. (Western as in Jesse James etc, not Western Civ, ya know.)Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-30130391198418260142009-06-30T23:40:52.293-05:002009-06-30T23:40:52.293-05:00You'd think a place with so many Polish people...You'd think a place with so many Polish people would be nicer. Maybe a hundred years of Polish jokes has finally gotten to them.Rev. Alan Kornacki, Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07322307218829558622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-24665906510201243092009-06-30T22:49:13.955-05:002009-06-30T22:49:13.955-05:00You kids. You should have been around where there...You kids. You should have been around where there were real trains, like the original California Zephyr, a joint venture of three railroads including "ours", the CB&Q (Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, for which my grandfather and uncle worked).<br /><br />Then again, I'm adopted. Was born West Side Chicago, St Anne's Hospital. Adopted family was "downstate", which is damn near Kentucky (and they have a musical instrument called a pie-ano), came to Chicago for better jobs. Then we left when I was three for Minnesota, where they still had the CB&Q.<br /><br />Only thing I like about Chicago is the Blues, like the other Luther in my life, Allison.<br /><br />And yeah, we don't even reach for light jackets until it gets below freezing. (Well, they don't, I do now being by the grace of God a Cornhusker these days.)<br /><br />I ain't goin no further south than I did the last time, Chattanooga, East Tennessee suits me fine, unless I get an invite to jam with Jimmy in Shreveport.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-22709585054693281252009-06-30T19:32:18.842-05:002009-06-30T19:32:18.842-05:00As a Chicagoan, I feel compelled to apologize for ...As a Chicagoan, I feel compelled to apologize for the impression you've received of our city due to the really awful treatment you got from the Amtrak people. It's probably too late to rescue our reputation as a whole city, but I hope you'll be able sometime to come back and be treated better beyond the Union Station world. It's painful to read of your experiences here and understandable that you would have the impression that this is simply "Chicago-style" behavior. All I can say is that there's a much less dour and rude side to the city, and lots of Chicagoans who love our city and would be happy to have a chance to be helpful and welcoming to you. I'm sorry that few or none of those were at Union Station when you were here! Thank you for this wonderful account of your trip to Milwaukee (my native city) and your retreat at Holy Hill, which is very aptly named. All blessings...ScottScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06523262033055211718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-3732999488011338052009-06-30T18:03:54.393-05:002009-06-30T18:03:54.393-05:00I've traveled Amtrak for trips of that distanc...I've traveled Amtrak for trips of that distance about 20 times. Mixed results. Always coach.<br /><br />The make or break difference has always been the quality of the staff on the train. Sometimes they've been amazing, sometimes not so much.<br /><br />I'm looking forward in just over four weeks to my first Amtrak ride with my wife. I know that even if the staff is bad, this will be my favorite trip!Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.com