tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post5648068101291671030..comments2024-03-23T14:04:57.635-05:00Comments on Father Hollywood: Closed Communion Cone-size Catch-22?Rev. Larry Beanehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-45737621652464104912009-05-21T02:36:16.780-05:002009-05-21T02:36:16.780-05:00Sorry to dredge up an older topic on your blog, bu...Sorry to dredge up an older topic on your blog, but this is interesting to me because I never really thought of how important of an issue it is rationally speaking. I mean the Lords Supper is extremely important, and I have always thought I have received communion in the manner upon which I have learned it within the Bible - that is, the taking of food and drink to remember the sacrifice of our Lord.<br /><br />I guess I do not understand how church doctrine can trump the Lords words in such a case. Assume I go to communion at a Catholic church, do I accept the the doctrine of all the Catholic church teaches is correct when I take the communion, even though I am actually trying to do what the Lord commanded, and simply, humbly remember His sacrifice?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-82324644394841966192009-04-27T11:15:00.000-05:002009-04-27T11:15:00.000-05:00Dear Brad:
It reminds me of the ad campaign by th...Dear Brad:<br /><br />It reminds me of the ad campaign by the United Methodist Church a few years ago, something like "Open doors, open minds."<br /><br />In the name of being "welcoming" (which at its root is driven by a marketing desire for numbers because our church body is shrinking along with the declining population of our LCMS families), we are now willing to open doors that were closed for a good reason.<br /><br />As Todd has pointed out, the "cone" argument is sophistry. I have more respect for the guys who practice open communion and come right out and admit that's what it is.<br /><br />Putting a dog in front of me and trying to convince me it's a chrysanthemum doesn't give me a lot of faith in anything else a person says.<br /><br />Refusing someone communion is hard. I hate having to do it. I'm sorely tempted every time to just give the person communion and be a "nice guy." But I know it is not the right thing to do (though, there truly are rare exceptions, but exceptions are, by definition, exceptional cases).<br /><br />There are several area pastors who have "bigger cones" - who will commune Roman Catholic and ELCA relatives of our members - which only serves to make the "big coned" seem jovial and nice, while portraying those of us who are trying hard to be faithful as mean, hateful, or unloving. That is what's frustrating.<br /><br />I'm not going to ascribe motives to any individual who practices open communion, but I do think in general, a lot of the motivation is cowardice and a desire to be seen as a "nice guy."<br /><br />I was told about a recent church rededication in our area in which a local Baptist pastor (who was publicly introduced as such) was given communion. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that nothing will happen to the pastor that communed him right in front of the district president.<br /><br />Meanwhile, the antics of the "big cones" are destroying what's left of our tattered unity and confusing the laity. <br /><br />And in the end, they are devaluing the sacrament - for ultimately, it doesn't matter at all what you believe - for even a lack of belief in the Real Presence (the Baptist belief) is no impediment to communing together.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-39715575055060056832009-04-27T11:03:00.000-05:002009-04-27T11:03:00.000-05:00Dear Brokenbeaker:
Problem is, we actually have p...Dear Brokenbeaker:<br /><br />Problem is, we actually have pastors who claim the confessions are optional, that "sola scriptura" means we only need to pay attention to the confessions that are directly proof-texted with scripture.<br /><br /><A HREF="http://weedon.blogspot.com/2009/04/when-another-one-leaves.html?showComment=1240606740000#c2943017088304501519" REL="nofollow">Here</A> is a remarkable discussion thread where this is argued by an LCMS pastor. There are more than 200 comments to wade through, though!Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-83063173020177955212009-04-27T11:01:00.000-05:002009-04-27T11:01:00.000-05:00Dear Todd:
Yes indeed. Thank you. If I had come...Dear Todd:<br /><br />Yes indeed. Thank you. If I had come up with the word "sophistry" I could have saved a couple thousand words.<br /><br />The sad part is that I don't think the advocate of this theory is trying to be a sophist. I think he is well-intentioned but simple-minded.<br /><br />Logic can (and indeed often does) oppose faith. But there is something to be said for thinking clearly and using reason in defense of the faith. Maybe our seminary programs need to be more intellectually rigorous - even as we are doing the opposite and making it easy, convenient, cheap, and less intellectually difficult to become a pastor in the LCMS.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-10692237535339655482009-04-27T10:57:00.000-05:002009-04-27T10:57:00.000-05:00Dear PE and Daniel:
I believe that the old custom...Dear PE and Daniel:<br /><br />I believe that the old custom of meeting the pastor privately on Saturday to "announce" for communion on Sunday was based on the need for private pastoral consultation and care - which would certainly include absolution.<br /><br />At my congregation, there are people who remember when you would announce to Pr. Schmid that you would be taking the Sacrament.<br /><br />Of course, to reinstate that in this day and age of convenience, in a culture that eschews commitment and follow-through would be a disaster.<br /><br />As this "cone theory" demonstrates, we have done a 180 and put the pedal to the metal.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-84776385778892515442009-04-27T10:54:00.000-05:002009-04-27T10:54:00.000-05:00Dear Christine:
I remember the situation when Bil...Dear Christine:<br /><br />I remember the situation when Bill Clinton was president, and a Roman Catholic priest communed him, knowing full well doing so violated not only his own church's canon law, but also knowing full well that Clinton was a Baptist.<br /><br />His justification was: "I couldn't refuse communion to the President of the U.S.!"<br /><br />Interestingly, the Obamas are currently church-shopping, and take communion wherever they go - even though the Episcopal church and the Baptist church not only believe some mutually-exclusive doctrines in general, but even about whet communion itself is!<br /><br />But notice what the criteria are: politics, racial make-up of the congregation, convenience, etc. Belief doesn't seem to matter at all.<br /><br />And this is what the "big cone" is ultimately about: the irrelevance of belief.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-39719765455176963932009-04-27T10:50:00.000-05:002009-04-27T10:50:00.000-05:00Dear Mike:
Good point. The argument has gotten s...Dear Mike:<br /><br />Good point. The argument has gotten so far off track that there is actually a side-debate over whether we should describe our communion practice as "closed" or as "close." <br /><br />You don't get much more postmodern than debating labels to the detriment of the substance.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-14236125756124816362009-04-27T10:49:00.000-05:002009-04-27T10:49:00.000-05:00Dear Bror:
I know, I know. But a fella can dream...Dear Bror:<br /><br />I know, I know. But a fella can dream, can't he?Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-75249833255408873782009-04-27T10:48:00.001-05:002009-04-27T10:48:00.001-05:00Dear Cecil:
Diversity is our strength. War is pe...Dear Cecil:<br /><br />Diversity is our strength. War is peace. Slavery is freedom...Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-19771251537515631272009-04-27T10:48:00.000-05:002009-04-27T10:48:00.000-05:00Dear Christian Soul:
I think your reasoning is sp...Dear Christian Soul:<br /><br />I think your reasoning is spot on. Let's face it, the real reason for open communion is that it is easier - especially on the pastor.<br /><br />It's like disciplining one's children. Is it easier to say "no" or is it easier to be your child's friend? <br /><br />I don't like enforcing closed communion. I don't like disciplining my son. But if I carried out my vocation based on what I like as opposed to what my duty is, I would ultimately be harming those whom I'm charged to care for.<br /><br />It's almost like our pastoral practice has been designed by Benjamin Spock and the prophets of self-esteem.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-74287957365496594012009-04-27T09:59:00.000-05:002009-04-27T09:59:00.000-05:00During a visit in his office, this is exactly how ...During a visit in his office, this is exactly how our DP explained Closed Communion to me and a handful of our elders. We gave thought to creating some nice cone-shaped pins for our ushers to wear on Sunday morning. I wonder if Ablaze would help fund such a project? "The doors. The doors." The nice thing about cones, and this is why our DP enjoys the image--they're always open. The discussion no longer needs to center on Christ and His Word and doctrine and faith and the care of individuals; it can now center on ME....err, I mean us. The big picture, he says, the big picture! And for the sake of the big picture, he tells us the Synod needs pastors with different sized cones. After all, some lay-people don't like pastors with small cones. Other lay-people, however, insist size does matter. That hurts, because I know for a fact that I am conically <br />challenged. Wait. I think Freud is using that white courtesy phone to give me a call.....Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15271192300641081244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-40150433257611379902009-04-27T08:40:00.000-05:002009-04-27T08:40:00.000-05:00see Augsburg Confession, Article XI, Confession: O...see Augsburg Confession, Article XI, Confession: Our churches teach that private Absolution should be retained in the churches, although listing all sins is not necessary for Confession. For, according to the Psalm, it is impossible. "Who can discern his errors!" (Psalm 19:12)Rev. Michael Monterastellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16445244885038398811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-20467008560246662562009-04-24T18:53:00.000-05:002009-04-24T18:53:00.000-05:00Could be. In the RCC of my youth -- pre-Vatican I...Could be. In the RCC of my youth -- pre-Vatican II -- confession on Saturday before Sunday Mass was the norm.<br /><br />Even if it isn't, an increase in private confession wouldn't be a bad thing anyway. Luther wrote somewhere that if we really understood what confession gives us, we would run a hundred miles to get it. Any of you pastors had anyone show up out breath lately?Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-49899471058820832142009-04-24T16:16:00.000-05:002009-04-24T16:16:00.000-05:00Father Hollywood and Past Elder,
"Declaring inten...Father Hollywood and Past Elder,<br /><br />"Declaring intent to commune" was a remnant of the earlier practise to come to private confession was it not?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04351586738869558601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-90038584513382293492009-04-24T12:53:00.000-05:002009-04-24T12:53:00.000-05:00His argument is the definition of sophistry.
TWHis argument is <I>the definition</I> of sophistry.<br /><br />TWTodd Wilkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17470378774431406044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-32004655012182378102009-04-23T06:27:00.000-05:002009-04-23T06:27:00.000-05:00In the entire time I was an elder, every Sunday co...In the entire time I was an elder, every Sunday communion practices were explained verbally beforehand, and those with further questions were encouraged to speak with the pastor or an elder, but I never had a single question, ever.<br /><br />What ever happened to the practice of declaring your intent to the pastor the day before? People used to stop by and do that and think nothing of it as some sort of unusual burden. That's within the memory of people I know.<br /><br />Great Judas in the apse, that no-one is admitted to the Sacrament without first being examined is one of the things the AC cites as evidence of our fidelity to the catholic faith!<br /><br />Leave the different sized cones to Dairy Queen.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-22852923319270512512009-04-22T14:43:00.000-05:002009-04-22T14:43:00.000-05:00The large Catholic megaparishes are at a distinct ...The large Catholic megaparishes are at a distinct disadvantage. Theoretically nonCatholics and Catholics not in "a state of grace" are not supposed to receive Holy Communion but the parish priest has no way of knowing who is or isn't "qualified." The burden is on the individual.<br /><br />And then there's the Episcopal church. In some parishes Holy Communion is offered to all, Christian, nonChristian, whatever. We truly don't want to go that route.<br /><br />Since coming home to the Lutheran Church (LCMS) I have so come to appreciate that in my parish my pastor knows my name and speaks it when I receive our Lord's Body and Blood and that he is genuinely concerned that those who commune are of one mind and spirit with the teachings of our Synod. <br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-1768052567520113552009-04-22T12:05:00.000-05:002009-04-22T12:05:00.000-05:00There is a certain element of truth to this idea o...There is a certain element of truth to this idea of the "cone." Here is why I say this: no church body (as far as I know)truly practices "open" communion. They will in fact commune any "baptized Christian." So, they draw some lines as well. We draw the lines around agreement in doctrine and practice as manifested in membership in a church body. They draw the lines around being baptized. So in reality no one really practices open communion but the lines are simply drawn in different places.<br /><br />The discussion then should be centred around the question: Why are the lines drawn where they are?Mike Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13555200228537464762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-85162457931241974612009-04-22T11:44:00.000-05:002009-04-22T11:44:00.000-05:00Integrity? You expect integrity?Integrity? You expect integrity?Bror Ericksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913133289813136695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-56192857617558215972009-04-22T11:39:00.000-05:002009-04-22T11:39:00.000-05:00This is fun -- LCMess style. We all need to have ...This is fun -- LCMess style. We all need to have bigger cones for a variety of reasons. (This is one of my favorite phrases: “for a variety of reasons”.) But returning to communion practices just among the LCMS. One, I suppose, must include all DP(s) and the president and all VP(s) in the synod. But wait, that would mean agreement that the first commandment allows for a cone big enough to include the Yankee stadium gods.<br /><br />Here’s another wrinkle. Google the Willow Creek Association and search your state or district states to find out how many of your “brethren” are members. I did it for Illinois and found 18 LCMS congregations; 2 in the CID and 1 in the SID the remainder in NID.Cecil The Sea Sick Sea Serpenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13537345550560367967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22781533.post-13559770157591836282009-04-21T23:35:00.000-05:002009-04-21T23:35:00.000-05:00These cones are big enough to allow people to do s...These cones are big enough to allow people to do spiritual harm to themselves by taking the Lord's body and blood in an unworthy manner. <br /><br />I imagine these pastors are pretty big coned when it comes to their practice of church discipline for the sake of calling unrepentant sinners to repentance as well.Christian Soulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17380463924003470217noreply@blogger.com